Improving Maternal Mental Health with Morgan Turner

Natalie: 0:49

on today's podcast, I chat with Morgan Turner about how her experience in doula work has transitioned her into the counseling space. She's currently in graduate school and plans to be a perinatal mental health counselor. We chat about maternal mental health, common signs to look out for if you or someone you know is going through some mental health struggles and what to do as a friend or family, and what to do if you are looking for support. I'm Natalie, and you're listening to the Resource Doula Podcast, a place where we provide information to help you make informed healthcare decisions for yourself and your family. Morgan Turner is a graduate student in the counseling psychology program at Alaska Pacific University. She has been a childbirth educator, birth and postpartum doula and lactation educator since 2015. She is a partner at GMs births providing birth support in South central Alaska. She is a president and co-founder of Alaska Birth Collective, a nonprofit resource for families during pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. Morgan is passionate about supporting families in the perinatal period and plans to continue her work with. As a counselor, Morgan is also a mom to four kids, ages 20 12, 7 and six, and lives in Eagle River, Alaska with her husband, three girls and their dog Huxley. She enjoys swimming in the lake at their cabin during the summer. Cross country skiing in the winter, True crime podcasts and living room dance parties. Hey Morgan, welcome to the show.

Morgan: 2:32

Thanks Natalie. It's good to see you.

Natalie: 2:34

So I wanna just dive right in. You've been doing doula work and childbirth education for like seven years now, which is probably crazy to think about. Um, and you recently have made a shift into the maternal mental health and counseling space. What made you decide to do that? What kind of inspired that transit?

Morgan: 2:54

Yeah. Um, it really is a very easy transition to make because from the very beginning clients have needed mental health support in one way or another. I would say that that is not an unusual ask for clients to say like, Hey, uh, can you recommend a therapist? Or, I'm feeling really sad and quickly. I was like, Oh, okay, this is out of my league. I need to find resources. And there really is a limited amount of resources here in Alaska for moms who are suffering with these postpartum, either depression, anxiety, and I do feel like being a do. Is like being a counselor. Um, we definitely are giving a lot of emotional support, validating feelings. I'm being just a listening ear for our clients and one of my, um, professors was like, Counseling is as old as time. We've always had that person in our lives that we go to when we have a problem. You know, whether. A sister or an aunt or, you know, um, even like a religious leader, counseling is a very long tradition. Um,

Natalie: 4:26

Hmm.

Morgan: 4:26

graduate school has definitely been a goal of mine for a while, and when Covid hit doula work was really shut down and so I ended up actually finishing my bachelor's degree. and I switched from accounting to psychology

Natalie: 4:46

Oh my gosh.

Morgan: 4:47

So I finished my bachelor's degree during Covid and um, like just applied to graduate school and got in right away. So I kind of rolled the dice and was like, Well, if I get in, it's meant to be, and if I don't, I'll figure something else out, or I'll just be a doula forever. Um, and so I got in and I was like, Okay, I think this is where I'm supposed to be. and I think that I, you know, being a doula will always be a part of me. Um, and I think that my work, um, as a counselor will really just be an extension of that. And, you know, we've built this business and we've nurtured it and I think. Having, you know, a licensed counselor on staff is only additive. And so I'm excited for what the future holds. I have two really intense years coming up for sure. Um, but. I'm excited and every time I have the opportunity to choose, uh, a topic for research papers, I choose postpartum. I choose perinatal mental health, and um, I'm learning a ton already. It's pretty exciting.

Natalie: 6:12

That's amazing. That's a really natural transition. Like it just makes a lot of sense as you're talking about it. It's like, Oh yeah, of course. Like of course you need a counseling degree. Of course. That makes so much sense. So that's awesome. And all of your experience in doula work just gives you that extra edge to know how to work with people like you've been doing it for years. So it's a very, very smooth segue or transition

Morgan: 6:37

think so too.

Natalie: 6:38

Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so for our listeners, um, if they don't know, can you give us like a definition of postpartum depression versus postpartum anxiety? And if there's any other diagnoses that are relevant that you talk about or, or see or hear about that they may not kind of know the, know the definition.

Morgan: 6:59

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, About day two, after you give birth, you have like the biggest hormone drop of your life. It just takes the biggest cliff dive, and then it starts kind of going back up to a normal level. This takes about two weeks, so in those two weeks you're going through some major hormonal shifts. So those baby blues where you're teary and the little sad, that's really, really normal. But if it kind of. Last past that two week mark, you can't get out of bed. You're having harmful thoughts. That's when it's time to see another person. Um, a professional that can kind of help you maybe with a diagnosis or find support. Um, So I love, um, postpartum support. International calls them postpartum mood and anxiety disorders. So that covers depression, anxiety, Um, any sort of personality disorder, um, any sort of psychosis. It's all encompassing. Um, so I call them PMA ds. That's

Natalie: 8:14

Yeah.

Morgan: 8:14

what I learned in the training. So they're PMA ds, um, and. Yeah, so persistent feelings that don't go away. Um, hopelessness, sadness, not feeling connected to your baby, um, not feeling like yourself. Um, all of these are symptoms and signs that it's probably time to talk to a professional. Um, definitely if you're having thoughts about harming yourself or your baby, that's an emergency. And, um, You know, you can call nine one one, you can call 9 8 8, You can go to your emergency room. Um, you, but definitely if you're feeling like you're gonna harm yourself or your baby, that is a true emergency and should be treated like one. Um, I think it's really hard for moms to figure out if they are suffering. because motherhood is so hard. Um, we're not sleeping. We're, if we're trying to breastfeed, we are using all of our energy to breastfeed our babies. And how do we know what's normal and what's not normal? And sometimes we can't figure that out on our own. So we need to talk to someone else about it.

Natalie: 9:32

That's a really good way to put it, I think. And that's, I think it's becoming like mental health disorders or mental health issues are becoming less taboo, but there's still some of that, like, uh, I don't know if I like, am bad enough to see a counselor. Like, I don't know if it's to the point where my issue is so significant that I should seek professional help. It's more so like, Oh, it's just a little bit, it's nagging me, but I think I can do it on my own or be, I'll be fine in a week. Like what would you say to a mom who's having those, those thoughts and

Morgan: 10:06

Right. So I think what I would really say is one, What is the harm in talking to a therapist or talking to your doctor? Um, therapy is additive to your life, right? It, um, can bring a lot of comfort and understanding to our lives. The other thing I would say is like, well, are you getting outta bed every day? Do you feel like you can shower? Do you feel like you can eat? And if some of those like normal tasks of daily life are just like too hard, that's another great sign then. Yeah. I should talk to someone.

Natalie: 10:45

Okay. I like that a lot. That's a good checklist to have on your

Morgan: 10:48

Yes.

Natalie: 10:50

Can I do these normal activities of, of, you know, just living and being a mom?

Morgan: 10:55

Yeah. Um, so another symptom can be not sleeping.

Natalie: 11:01

Oh,

Morgan: 11:01

So that is a, that is like definitely an indicator that something's going on, um, that tends to, and that can really spiral quickly if we're not sleeping. Um, so that's a kind of one of those red flags to look out for. And, um, I don't think people talk about that one as much.

Natalie: 11:21

No, that's not something you hear regularly. And I think in postpartum, people just talk about how little you sleep anyways, and they just, you know, harp on that so much more. And so maybe it goes un overlooked in a way if people are struggling to actually sleep.

Morgan: 11:38

Yes.

Natalie: 11:40

okay, so with everybody talking about not getting enough sleep, are there some strategies that you would recommend that are foolproof for helping moms get more sleep in those, in those early days or even later postpartum? We all need sleep. Always

Morgan: 11:56

Um, there's a couple things that I think are really important. First off, if you know that you're a person that needs nine hours of sleep, You still focus on getting nine hours of sleep, even if it takes 13 or 14 hours to get those nine hours, you still aim for those nine hours. Um, if your baby goes to sleep, you go to sleep. Um, I know sometimes we really have to eat or shower or take care of other kids, but priority should be rest and taking care of ourselves. Um, and I know that co-sleeping can be a very taboo subject and controversial, but um, it is how I survived motherhood with little children is I co-slept and. I never got so exhausted that I didn't feel like I could function because I would just latch my baby on my breast and go back to sleep. Um, you know, if people are interested in co-sleeping, um, I always send them those, um, seven sleep habits for safe sleep. And it's things like, um, not having big, bulky blankets or pillows and. Making sure your partner is safe, not sleeping with anyone that smokes or is taking prescription medication that makes it hard for them to wake up. Um, there's a few more on that list that you can just, you know, seven, I think it's called, seven Safe Sleep Habits. And, um, I always point parents to that and I think that as parents you get to make that decision for yourself. and I don't know how I would've survived parenting without co-sleeping. It is how I got the rest I needed to take care of my family, and my baby slept good, my baby fed well. Um, and that just seemed like very natural and normal to me. Um, now if you, you know, it's not for everyone and I understand that. I mean, why don't you just try it for a nap if you're interested in it, Right. Um,

Natalie: 14:15

It's not an all or nothing thing.

Morgan: 14:17

that's right. Um, I read years ago that like having a fan in a room is really good for babies. So I usually have a fan going for sleep. Um, And yeah, I just always made sure we had a safe sleep environment and, um, sometimes that meant that my husband slept with a toddler in another bed and I slept with a baby in a bed. And, um, but that meant that we all got more sleep. So, yeah, I'm, I am a big fan of doing what's best for your family and if that means co-sleeping, like do it really safely, but I think, um, Make it work for your family? You know, I think, um, when we look at really big groups like the apa, they have to make these recommendations based on like safety, and they don't know your family, and so you have to make that best guess for you and that best choice for you. So that's kind of my thoughts on co-sleeping for sure. But, um, yeah, just an app, try an app.

Natalie: 16:37

I like that recommendation. Yeah. I am a, I'm a fan of the co-sleeping movement. It's actually, it's funny that we call it that because every other culture in the world really, they sleep with their babies. Most of them, I guess I should say. I shouldn't make a sleeping statement, but, um, I don't know if you follow Taylor KIC on Instagram,

Morgan: 16:57

know that name. I probably do.

Natalie: 17:00

Yeah, she is a wealth of information on, she's an OT and a sleep specialist, and she talks about bed sharing and safe bed sharing and co-sleeping versus crib sleep and, um, really biological infant sleep and what they really need developmentally rather than like a sleep training program. And so I, she is, she is an awesome one to follow and she posts a lot of stories and she has webinars and all of that, and she shares, like most parents actually co-sleep with their babies at one point or another during their postpartum period, but they don't tell their doctors because they're afraid of the judgment or that, you know, God forbid they get their babies taken away from them or something like that. Um, so she helps you do it safely because if you're gonna fall asleep with your baby on the couch, then let's create a, a safer sleep environment for you

Morgan: 17:56

Yeah, that's a really great point. I think, um, bed sharing is such the negative connotation, but like sleeping on the couch or in a chair, that can be more dangerous than sleeping in a bed

Natalie: 18:08

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. She, um, she recommends you even set up like a mattress on the floor. So if baby rolls off, then it's not that far for them to

Morgan: 18:20

exactly what we did. Um, my toddler broke our bed frame, so I was like, Okay, I guess this is a sign that we should just sleep on the floor and, you know, that's what we did. And I honestly don't know how we would've survived, especially the last two because my kids are. 18 months apart, like without sleep, to take care of a newborn and a toddler, like I really needed the sleep.

Natalie: 18:46

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And we recommend rest in that immediate postpartum period. Like stay in bed for a week if you can really get up to use the bathroom and shower and maybe you go to the couch for like some hours during the day, but, but really you have other people bringing you food, right? As doulas we're always like, get help, Get help ask for help. Get a postpartum doula and how is that gonna be possible if you are walking to your baby's room, you know, every time you need to feed them or every time they need a diaper change and all of that. So having them close

Morgan: 19:20

Really

Natalie: 19:21

maximize your rest. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Thanks for echoing all of

Morgan: 19:27

Yeah, of course.

Natalie: 19:29

Um, okay, so what I would, now that we're talking a little bit about your own motherhood journey, is there something that you would say. Surprising that you didn't prepare for or expect in your own journey that came about, and then what was it and how did you work through it or overcome it?

Morgan: 19:52

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so with my fourth baby, Uh, birdie. She, if you look at her birth, it was like picture perfect, right? She was born at home in the water. Labor was like three hours. My doula was there, my midwife was there, my husband was there, my toddler was there. Um, it was a really simple delivery. Um, and. It should be picture perfect, right? Like I'm the luckiest girl. Um, but to me that birth was really, really hard. Um, and so while yes, on paper it's like the perfect home birth, um, for me that was a really, really hard birth. And so really, Kind of being able to like, make sense of those two dichotomies, right? Like it's the opposite side of a coin. Like actually that was a really, really hard birth. But also, yes, I got everything I wanted on my list, you know? Um, that took quite a bit of time to work through. Um, I have my own therapist that I work through a lot of these things with. Um, the first time that I saw a therapist was really to work through some secondary trauma from birth trauma that I had experienced as a doula. And I just knew like I wasn't okay. And so I went to therapy and she really helped me process that really tough birth and. Yeah, I started talking about my own births and kind of my childhood and um, really just started to work on my own mental health, um, which I thought was actually pretty good, but I'm like, Oh, there's a lot of work you can do to improve your life. And, um, I think I'll be in therapy forever, you know, because, There's always stress to manage. Um, there's always relationships to manage and to have that person to talk to that's confidential, that I don't have to see every day. That's just there for me is really so, so helpful. You know, I'm a mom of four. I'm married, I am a graduate student. I run my own business. I run a nonprofit. I am busy and stretch to the Max

Natalie: 22:29

You were so busy

Morgan: 22:30

I, I have to take care of myself too, and I just consider my therapy appointments as like part of my regular self care, which I hate the word self care now because it's overused and. It's not, it doesn't have the meaning that I think it should now because it's like we talk about it so much. Um, but it is sort of one of my pillars that I lean on for sure.

Natalie: 22:59

More mental

Morgan: 23:00

Yes. I mean, yeah. If I go, you know, like a month or two without seeing my therapist, I'm like, hmm. I can tell that I'm keeping things in and I'm not talking about them. And um, it's time for a visit so I can work all these things out. Yeah.

Natalie: 23:19

So would you say like, just talking through all of your stuff has been the most helpful or has, has that therapist given you strategies? Like do you have tools that you use to calm yourself down in the moment? What? What has

Morgan: 23:33

Yes. So I. Feel like I have a lot of tools in my toolbox now, and they're very similar to doula tools. Lots of breathing, right? So I, if I'm feeling anxious, the first thing I do is work on my breathing. Um, I do grounding exercises to, you know, remind myself where I am, who I am and what's going on. Um, I listen to meditations daily. Usually at night when it's quiet and everyone's gone to bed. Um, I listen to a meditation every night and

Natalie: 24:11

Is that from like an app

Morgan: 24:12

yeah, you know, I actually use Spotify for most of them, and like, I just Google or I search in Spotify, like whatever is going on with me that day, like I'll find a meditation for it. So, other day I had the worst headache, so I was like, find a meditation for a headache. And I did. And it was like, that was so nice. So I know,

Natalie: 24:38

that was on Spotify?

Morgan: 24:39

so, it's, it seems silly, but um, I do this with my daughter too. She is a, she does not sleep well. And so we, I'm like, What are you thinking about right now? And then we just find a meditation podcast that kind of talks about that topic. And, um, that has been super helpful. Um, I definitely exercise as one of my like, key pillars for mental health, um, mental wellness. If I'm not getting sweaty a few times a week, I can tell that like I get a little crankier and maybe don't have like that patience that I usually have. Um, so exercise is one of my really big pillars. Sleep is one of my really big pillars. Um, managing stress is one of my pillars. So all of those things I check in with. Really on a daily basis, like, what do you need to do today? Do you need to go for a walk? Um,

Natalie: 25:42

Yeah,

Morgan: 25:43

I say,

Natalie: 25:44

we all do. Always

Morgan: 25:45

I'm like, Do you need to go for a stupid walk for your stupid mental health? Yes, I do and um, yeah, sometimes I have to make myself go on a walk and also sometimes I have to. Lay on the ground and put my feet up the wall, you know what I mean? Like there's just times when you need to like do some restorative movement and then there's time when you need to like really get out there and sweat. So I try to be mindful of that.

Natalie: 26:19

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're really body aware after all of this work that you've been doing through therapy. Like you can know exactly what your body needs in that moment, and that's huge. Right? Awareness is half the battle or more than half the battle

Morgan: 26:33

I think so too. Um, I'm trying to teach my kids about that too. So we're kind of learning together, like what does, you know, what does exhaustion feel like and what does worry feel like? And um, I am pretty body aware for sure. So I do think it's important.

Natalie: 26:53

yeah, and I feel like there's something to be said for fresh air, getting your feet moving underneath you and moving some heavy weights because strength training and, you know, I'm a fan of that. I like to hear you say exercises is one of your pillars because there's something about lifting up heavy weights and moving them through space and putting them back down and using your muscles. It teaches us really that we can do hard things. And I think it more so teaches us that we can do hard things more mentally than it really does. I mean, physically. Sure, yeah. Cool. You, you know, pr it on your lift, but it, it does something different for our mental health. So,

Morgan: 27:33

completely agree. Um, I'm always a little nervous, like when I have to lift heavy weights and um, even if they're not super heavy, they're heavy for me. I'm like, Oh man, can I do this? And it's like, I can do this, you know, And um, birth is kind of like that too, right? It's so much more mental, um, just believing that you can do it. Um, so I know that birth has taught me that for sure, and I do carry that with me and we can do hard things,

Natalie: 28:09

we can. I wanna go into, We talked a little bit about kind of what are the signs of some postpartum mood disorders. What would you say are the best ways that someone can prepare ahead of time before they get to that point of noticing those symptoms, um, for their motherhood transition or whatever it may be in their life? How can they best prepare their mental health? How can they set up support? What would that look like?

Morgan: 28:38

Yeah, that's a really great question. Really important question. If you are someone who has had bouts of anxiety or depression before pregnancy or during pregnancy, you are more likely. To have some sort of postpartum mood or anxiety disorder. And so there are a couple things that you can do. One, have a therapist ready to go, have that appointment set up for three weeks postpartum. Um, talk to your partner. What are your, uh, canary in the coalmine signs, right? Like, um, oh, last time I was depressed I didn't wanna shower or I didn't wanna get out of bed. So if I start doing those things, you need to tell me

Natalie: 29:33

mm.

Morgan: 29:33

you're noticing it. Um, talking to your provider, um, is super important to kind of establish like, Hey, I'm worried about this and I would like support on this. You know, there are absolutely medications that are available if you need them that are safe for pregnancy and. Postpartum and nursing. So, um, don't be afraid to ask about that if you need it. I think, um, having support is so important. Um, we are a very individualistic culture and asking for help is kind of a sign of weakness in our culture, and we have to change that to support postpartum.

Natalie: 30:23

It shouldn't be considered a sign of weakness.

Morgan: 30:26

no, not at all. I mean, you know, my husband is a teacher and he had to go back to work so quick because there isn't paternity leave and, um, gosh, just being home alone, it's lonely sometimes. And I'm super grateful. My mom would come and like, feed me and, you know, sweep the floor. You know, I had friends and family that supported me, um, for my last birth, my doula, like, she invited me over to her house and she fed me. And I don't know if I would've survived that postpartum without her. You know, I, I was pretty overwhelmed having a newborn and a toddler for the first time. All my other kids are so spread out in age. I never had to care for two babies that were so dependent on me with also caring for two older kids. So it was a really hard transition for me. And without that support, I would've really just been, you know, drowning those, It would've been way too much. And that support is what helped me get through those really tough few first months. And, um, You know, who is that for you? And if you don't have anyone, right? Because so many people, especially up here in Alaska are transplants. They're not from here. Um, and then you might wanna consider hiring a postpartum doula. Um, even if it's just three days a week for a few hours so that you can talk to someone who understands they can help feed you, help you get a nap or shower, help you with breastfeeding. Um, you have to have that person in your life. Either you hire postpartum help or you bring in that family and friends to help. Um, we are not meant to do this alone. We are meant to mother together. Um, and we have to make that for ourselves. It sucks, right that it's our, on the pregnant, the newly postpartum mom to ask for all this help. So definitely doing it. during, um, you know, during pregnancy I think is super helpful. But it is our society. Like I always think about the baby shower, right? Everyone is so excited. They bring you all these super cute baby gifts and then after you have the baby, those people are not around and they're sweet, busy people that, you know, That's how our society works. That's what we do. And so if we're not actively changing that and asking for what we need, telling people what we need, um, we're gonna continue to suffer.

Natalie: 33:19

Yeah. Yeah. And you may or may not know how I feel about baby showers, but I advise all of my clients to change them into a mother shower. Or if it is a baby shower, then put lots of things on your registry that will support you as the mom, like a massage gift certificate, for example. Um, a coupon. If people don't wanna buy you a gift, have them give you a certificate for dinner at some point, or do something, just come over and do your laundry. Like that is way more valuable than another onesie that says cute thing on it. Right. And a postpartum ab wrap meals in your freezer. All of those things are really the best gift that you could give somebody for their baby shower. Um, yeah, I, I just think it really needs to change our culture. Yeah. Squatty potties, they could give squatty potties. That would be awesome.

Morgan: 34:09

that's great. Yeah. fancy, like Frida mom, like Perry bottles

Natalie: 34:15

The one with the angled spout. Yes.

Morgan: 34:19

Oh my gosh. That has to be on your registry now. Like it would've been so nice. Yes, I, you know, I'm kind of aging out of baby showers now that I'm a bit older, but I always tell everyone, I'm like, Bring something for the mom. Um, I just, the baby's gonna be fine. you know, it's the mom that we really need to worry about.

Natalie: 34:47

Yeah. Yeah. The baby will wear maybe a diaper for the first week.

Morgan: 34:53

Oh my gosh. They'll live in their pajamas, you know,

Natalie: 34:56

Yeah.

Morgan: 34:56

the ones with the zipper, so it's easy to change them in the middle of the night. So

Natalie: 35:01

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah. There's so much work to be done. Um, I think it is changing though. I think people are talking about it. People are talking about pelvic floor, they're talking about postpartum mood disorders. They're talking about supporting mothers better just with nourishing them with good foods. And can you talk a little bit about that actually? Like what does eating have to do with your mental health and what kinds of foods that you eat,

Morgan: 35:28

Yes. Um, this is a great question. Um, protein is so important for our mental health. Um,

Natalie: 35:37

preach,

Morgan: 35:39

you know, all of the macronutrients are really important in postpartum. Your body is healing, you're producing milk, so it's really, really important, right? You need a lot of carbs for that energy. You need fat so that there is enough substance there. You need protein to keep you full and to keep those building blocks going. Um, but protein is really one of those ones that is, um, indicated for mental health, which I think is great, um, because we need it for postpartum healing too.

Natalie: 36:10

Yeah.

Morgan: 36:12

So, you know, I really like to keep nutrition really, really simple with our clients when we're talking about this. It's like your plate needs all the macronutrients on it, right? Do you have veggies? Do you have, you know, fat, carbs, protein you need at all? Um, this is not the time to be low carb. This is not the time to, um, you know, cut out specific food groups. This is the time to really nourish your body and to eat a lot of food. Like you need more food postpartum than you need during pregnancy, and that is in direct opposition of getting your body back, which is, you know, I think we are like kind of at the post, the peak of get your body back. I feel like we know now that that's a ridiculous, um, sentiment, but, um, That doesn't mean that the pressure is not still there

Natalie: 37:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Morgan: 37:15

because it's definitely still there. Um,

Natalie: 37:19

Also, you're not getting it back. It didn't go anywhere.

Morgan: 37:22

right. Well, and telling someone to like change their body back after having a baby is like trying to tell like a 15 year old to change their body back after going through puberty.

Natalie: 37:34

Yeah, that's a really good analogy. Yes,

Morgan: 37:37

Yes. Um, your body has changed forever. Um, and there are like legit physiological changes that only happen after pregnancy and birth. Right. Like your breast is considered immature until you deliver a baby. Um, you know, our joints loosen up so that we can birth our babies. They might not be as tight as they were before and that's okay. Um, I just, um, yeah, I really wanted to. Be thought of as a, a one way transition. Right. We go through it, we don't go backwards. It's a one way, um, just like puberty. Yeah.

Natalie: 38:20

Yeah, that's a good way to, to think about it and to phrase it because so many people talk about, Oh, I fit back into my pre-pregnancy genes and these are the mark. You know, clothes usually are the markers that they're using or the, the pounds on the scale. And that is not correlated with your worth as a human or as a mom and how well you're doing in postpartum. I would rather have you gain weight and feel amazing and feel mentally stable and ready to, you know, take on the day and rested than to fit back into pre-pregnancy genes.

Morgan: 38:55

Right. Absolutely. Um, yeah. I think about pelvic health. Um, I know you and I have talked about that a lot over the years, but you know, when I had my first baby 20 years ago, nobody ever said a word about that. Um, and I love that now everyone is talking about it. We're talking about it to every single one of our clients or you know, just like we say, we have to take care of our mental health. You have to take care of your pelvic health. And so I do see it as a sign of like really positive sign that things are changing for the better, but it's a slow change.

Natalie: 39:33

Yeah. And I would agree, and I would say that taking care of your pelvic health is actually indirectly taking care of your mental health. Because you think of all of the people who go back to their, their practitioner at six weeks postpartum and they get the all clear to exercise, have sex, do whatever they want, right? But what if they're not mentally ready? And what if there's pressure for their pelvis to do these things, right? If they're not ready. And that part of our bodies is so. Connected to our wellbeing mentally. So if you have pain with sex, it's not normal. I just have to say that like a million times over. And if you're not ready to return to having sex at six weeks postpartum, that is okay and that is normal. And obviously work with a, a pelvic floor PT and figure out if there are some issues that you can, you can work on and restore and, and get that better. Um, but I think that that's worth saying because there's just so much, so much, um, pressure and everything is wound up in that six week appointment for a lot of people. And if your partner is ready to go and not, not as understanding as they could be, then that can be even more added stress. Um, so I just wanted to add that in there.

Morgan: 40:52

Yeah. I think about, um, have you read that book? The Body Keeps the Score by Bezel Vander

Natalie: 40:59

I'm halfway through it. I'm halfway through it.

Morgan: 41:01

Yeah. It's, it's a long one. but you know, our bodies know and, um, Healing our bodies along with our brains or our minds. Like it's really important. So we can't ignore one and expect the other to be Well, we are, we are a fully connected, integrated human. Um, I actually was just listening to a psychologist and he was, he was saying that like, like in the Buddhist tradition and the Dallas tradition, there is no such thing as a mind body connection because it's literally the same thing. Like there's no separation. And I love that. And that's right. So if our bodies are out of wellness, then our brains are gonna be out of wellness. And if our brains are out of wellness, our bodies are going to be too. So

Natalie: 41:56

And you can't expect to separate it. Like, Okay, I'm gonna close my eyes and, you know, hopefully my body will be fine. I'll start jumping and doing CrossFit and all of those things, and then your mind isn't ready for that. Or vice versa. Maybe you're, you're feeling ready mentally, but your body's not there. So yeah, lining those two things up can be a little bit tricky but

Morgan: 42:16

it can. Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Natalie: 42:21

So are there books, other books or resources or accounts that you follow that you would recommend our listeners check out in regards to mental, maternal mental health?

Morgan: 42:32

yeah, absolutely. Um, for postpartum specifically, I love, um, like the fourth trimester and, um, nourishing the new mother, like what's the other one I like? Oh, the first 40 days is really good. They have recipes, which I think is super helpful. Um, I think nourishing your body is really important and these books, I think make it pretty easy, but also, um, kind of break down like what's normal, what's not normal. And it's just a really good book to have one of those postpartum books with you. Yeah, so there are great, um, you know, social media accounts you can follow. Um, I always recommend postpartum support International. They're sort of leading the way, um, for this cause They have, um, online support groups. They have a one 800 number you can call anytime or day, and a live person will answer. Um, they also have a provider guide, so a map of people that have taken their trainings, so you can look and see if there's one in your area, um, if you feel like you need support. So that's really important. Um, also, many states have local chapters for postpartum support International. So Alaska has a local chapter. Um, a few other accounts I like. It's the, it's the postpartum therapist. It,

Natalie: 44:03

Ooh,

Morgan: 44:05

The underscore postpartum underscore therapist. Um, I like her count. I think, um, she's saying what we need to hear for sure. Um, yeah, and I think, um, definitely getting involved or at least having things like that bookmarked or, you know, that you're following during pregnancy is super important. Um, you know, kind of adding tools to your toolbox, right? Like, oh, I have these accounts that I can follow on Instagram. Um, I also follow Dr. Reem. Um, her Instagram handle is psych. P S Y C H, Ed. Ed Mommy, m o m m y. Um, I really like her, um, content as well.

Natalie: 45:01

I haven't heard of a couple of these, so I'm excited to start following them and I will link them all in the show notes as well so people can easily

Morgan: 45:09

That's great.

Natalie: 45:10

Yeah.

Morgan: 45:11

Yes.

Natalie: 45:12

I had another question as you were talking. We have basically talked all about postpartum, can these things and can these, these mood disorders happen to you if during pregnancy? Is that a thing?

Morgan: 45:25

That is a thing. Um, I think that is really not talked about, right? If postpartum mental health isn't talked about, then you know that antenatal perinatal, um, mental health is really not talked about. Um, her, you know, our hormones are shifting so much during pregnancy. They're doing really important jobs. Um, if we have any life stressors, um, any sort of history of depression or anxiety, It absolutely can come up during pregnancy. Um, I think it's really important to know that, you know, you can find help and you can get better. Um, you know, your OB is going, the person you see monthly is probably going to be your first line of defense. Um, but again, therapy, uh, sleep, you know, all these things that we can do, um, that make us feel good. Those things still help even if we're depressed. Um, sometimes though we need help getting started and that's when we, you know, go to a doctor, maybe start medication. Um, definitely find a therapist. I think that's really, really important. Um, but you, you just want all the tools, right? So medication is a tool. You need it or you don't. You may need it now. You might not need it later, you might not. You know, And I think that's important. I think there's a lot of providers that just say it isn't safe to take medication during pregnancy, and that's just absolutely not true. There have been a lot of studies done, um, about the safety of specific drugs and their interactions with pregnancy and, you know, you have to also compare it to what are the risk factors of, um, severe anxiety or stress on a pregnant mom, a pregnant person, right? Um, so is the medication more dangerous than chronic stress and anxiety? Um, you know,

Natalie: 47:49

and cons.

Morgan: 47:51

Yes, absolutely. So that decision is, you know, unique for every human being and should be made with, you know, a professional. Um, but I do think it's really important to know that there are absolutely medications that are safe to take if you feel like you need that support.

Natalie: 48:08

Awesome. I know that there is Kelly mom who talks about some medications for breastfeeding, right. Is there any resource like that for pregnancy? I'm not aware of

Morgan: 48:18

there, yeah. There is so it's L A C T A P P medical. Um, I also see one here that's medications and mother's milk. So there are absolutely, um, apps that you can use. You can look up websites, but another really great tool is to check with your local I B C L C.

Natalie: 48:41

Hmm.

Morgan: 48:42

Um, they have that specific pharmacology training when it comes to milk and um, medication. That's a really great resource.

Natalie: 48:55

definitely. And that should be part of your toolkit that you have and your support system that you have prior to delivery. I think you should, you should meet with an i b clc, a lactation consultant prior to giving birth, so you're familiar with them. And then when you know you're in the middle of the night and having issues or thinking about all these breastfeeding questions, you already know who you're gonna reach out.

Morgan: 49:22

Absolutely. We are really lucky in our area to have several that are available. Um, but I, I love the, to set up that meeting be before birth for sure. There's a lot to know.

Natalie: 49:38

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. We're gonna wrap up with our two questions that I ask every single guest who comes on the show. First of all, what is your number one piece of advice for our listeners? What do you want everyone to know? If you had to narrow it down,

Morgan: 49:57

Oh, I think my number one piece of advice is that we are not meant to do this alone. And you need to find your community and, you know, don't let go. I think it's really easy to just, um, like, yeah, that, that would be great, but and then we kind of maybe don't ask again. Um, but we need that community and you know, is it your mother-in-law, your father-in-law? Is it your aunts and uncles and cousins? Is it your next door neighbor? Um, we have to have community

Natalie: 50:33

Yeah. Yeah,

Morgan: 50:34

I think parenting. Is so hard and we need a community. And I think that is really lacking. And I said it before, it sucks that it's on us right. To build it, but it is. And so we need to do

Natalie: 50:50

yeah, yeah. And I think it's easier for friends and family to help if they have direction. So don't be afraid to ask for exactly what you need, because they want to help everybody's well meaning and wants to help most of the time, but they just don't know how Always.

Morgan: 51:08

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if there's older siblings offer to pick them up and take them out or pick them up from school, um, sweep their kitchen floor, you know, there's always something you can do to

Natalie: 51:22

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Next question. What is your favorite wellness habit that you incorporate into your daily life?

Morgan: 51:31

Oh, that's a great question. My favorite wellness habit is probably sleep Um,

Natalie: 51:40

I like that one.

Morgan: 51:42

I am not myself without really good sleep, and so that is my foundational habit. Um, I have to have that one in line for all the others to sort of fall into place. Um, I also think that is the one that if we start with that, like everything else just gets a little easier. Um, yeah, definitely sleep

Natalie: 52:10

agree, All right. Well, can you tell us where listeners can find you online, where you're at on social media and where they can find you, what you offer, what your upcoming gig is gonna be?

Morgan: 52:26

Yeah, absolutely. So I would love if you all would check out Alaska Birth Collective. It's on the socials is at Alaska Birth Collective. The website is Alaska birth collective.org. That is my non-profit resource guide for Alaskan families. Um, I've worked really hard to build that and, um, it has great resources for families. Um, and then our, um, my doula business is jms births.com. Um, and you can find us on Instagram at jms births. Um, we offer basically everything you can need from, uh, childbirth education, lactation education, birth support, postpartum support, um, birth photography, We,

Natalie: 53:18

That's really the whole gamut,

Morgan: 53:22

yes. Um, and yeah, we support moms basically from like GERD to Taina and, um, Love our jobs. I work with, um, a couple other doulas and, um, we support each other and kind of support our clients together, and we think it's a really great model for sustainability and for giving our clients the best care. Um, yeah, I'll be sticking around both of those organizations while I transition, um, through grad school and then, um, eventually I, you know, I hope to do private practice, but, um, that's a few years away and so hopefully I'll just be available to families in our area before them.

Natalie: 54:10

Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I think a few years away, we'll fly by

Morgan: 54:16

I know I, the last three years and like, where, where did the time go? So

Natalie: 54:20

I'm still stuck in 2020 mentally

Morgan: 54:24

I think I am too. I think. Fall of 2019 to early 2020, like after that, it's all a blur. So I mean, I took that as to mean like, yeah, just go to grad school cuz the time's gonna go so fast.

Natalie: 54:41

It's amazing that you took the pandemic year to finish your bachelor's degree and decide to go to graduate school. That's huge. That's awesome.

Morgan: 54:50

I know. I, I really like look back and I'm like, gosh, I'm so glad that past Oregon figured out that I should do that because I really feel like I'm just where I should

Natalie: 55:01

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here today and having this conversation with me. I think our listeners will really appreciate it.

Morgan: 55:09

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Natalie: 55:12

My top takeaway from my conversation with Morgan was get your support system around you and know who you're going to reach out to if you are experiencing symptoms of mental health disorder. I've linked all of the resources she mentioned as well as her sites and social pages for you to follow in the show notes for this episode.

Carolyn: 55:36

Welcome to the push corner with Carolyn and Lauren of mental push plan,

Lauren: 55:41

bringing you mental tools to empower you through pregnancy birth and.

Carolyn: 55:44

We've got another mindful minute

Lauren: 55:46

coming your way today. Yes. This time we are going to do a common technique practice in mindfulness, which is observing your breath. We invite you to take a quick break from whatever else you might be working on while listening to this podcast, whether that be working on your computer laundry, knitting, you get the idea

Carolyn: 56:05

now without changing your breath, just begin to observe how you're breathing right now. Is it short and shallow or long and deep. Are you breathing through your nose or mouth? And can you notice the sensation of the air as it passes your nostrils or lips? Maybe you notice the quality of your. Is it smooth or perhaps more rugged try noticing the temperature of the air as it hits the back of your throat.

Lauren: 56:40

The breath is a great way to practice mindfulness because it is something that happens without us having to think about it. It can also be a quick check in that you can squeeze into moments across your day, such as driving in the car, walking the dog, or taking a short break at your desk. You can also practice mindfulness while brushing your teeth, noticing the suds in your mouth, the bristles, along your teeth and gums, or while eating, noting the taste texture and scent of what you're eating and how it feels on your tongue while you.

Carolyn: 57:15

In doing these exercises of mindfulness, your mind may wander, or you may start to judge the thoughts or feelings that come up. That's okay. Working on allowing these thoughts to gently pass by, without labeling or assigning them value as if they were a cloud passing by in the sky.

Lauren: 57:34

And as always practice, practice, practice with that, you'll begin to develop this skill more naturally. It's not about not having thoughts. It's about letting them go in a way that doesn't involve guilt, shame, anger, frustration, or any other judgemental emotions.

Carolyn: 57:55

As always, you already have all the mental strength you need. These

Lauren: 57:59

are just the tools to help you tap into it. Check out mental push plan.com or find us on Instagram to learn more.

Natalie: 58:06

Please remember that what you hear on this podcast is not medical advice, but remember to always do your own research and talk to your provider before making important decisions about your healthcare. If you found this podcast helpful, please consider living a five star review in your favorite podcast app as it really helps other people find the show. Thanks so much for listening. I'll catch you next time.