Natalie 0:00

On today's podcast, I chat with Dr. Berlin about his work as a body worker and advocate for informed choice and how he helps his clients feel more settled in their nervous systems so they can have the best birth experience and postpartum recovery possible. Welcome to the ResourceDoula podcast. I'm Natalie, your host, and my goal is to equip you with the tools and information you need to make informed healthcare decisions while having some fun along the way. Through engaging interviews with experts, personal stories, and insightful commentary, I'll save you the time and effort of sifting through countless sources on the internet. Consider me your personal resource dealer, because if I don't know the answer, I can connect you with someone who probably does. So whether you're a seasoned health guru or just starting your journey, I hope this show inspires and encourages you every step of the way. Dr. Elliott Berlin is an award winning prenatal chiropractor, childbirth educator, labor support body worker, and co founder of Berlin Wellness Group in Los Angeles, California. Dr. Berlin graduated summa cum laude from Life University of Chiropractic in Atlanta, Georgia, and the Atlanta School of www. 1 866 325 7000. For more information visit www. innovative pre and postnatal wellness care techniques. Unique chiros massage sessions soothe and relax tight, painful muscles and restore motion to restricted joints. These 30 to 45 minute treatments effectively address most pregnancy aches and pains in just a few visits, and promote healthy, comfortable, and functional pregnancy. And an ideal environment for labor and delivery. Dr. Berlin's informed pregnancy project aims to utilize multiple forms of media, podcasts, YouTube series, documentaries, and online workshops to compile and deliver unbiased information about pregnancy and childbirth to empower new and. Expectant parents to make informed choices regarding their pregnancy and parenting journey. Dr. Berlin lives in Los Angeles with his wife, perinatal psychologist, Dr. Alyssa Berlin, and their four fantastic kids. Dr. Berlin, welcome to the resource doula podcast. Thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Berlin 2:25

my goodness, thank you for having me.

Natalie 2:28

Of course, of course I've been excited to talk to you for a long time now And I just wanted to jump in with really asking what led you to Decide to pursue a career in women's health and pregnancy and chiropractic work

Dr. Berlin 2:43

Wow, that's a little question. Okay, so, Uh, you ever play a video game and you're not sure where to go and then a big arrow comes up and says go this way? That's kind of how my career unfolded. I I was a kid and I walked into a building in New York City where I grew up And they were teaching a CPR class And I was, I was like, mortified. I was like, oh my god, what are they doing to that poor woman with no arms and no legs? And, and then they explain that you could be somebody's heart and lungs and save their life until they can get advanced medical care. And I was like, that is mind boggling. From that moment forward, I didn't even know what it was called, but I knew I wanted to do health care. I wanted to like spend my time here on this planet, uh, using my body to help other people, uh, feel better or survive or live a better life. Uh, and so I just pursued it. I, before. Before I was 10 years old, I was taking American Red Cross classes and, uh, first aid and then responding to emergencies and CPR. And eventually, as a teenager, I was teaching for the American Red Cross. And then, uh, when I was 17, I did emergency medical technician training. When I was 18, I was working in ambulances and emergency rooms. When I was 19, I was pre med. And then my father suddenly died, um, partially from a medical mix up. And, um... It was like a big shock. I still finished all the requirements for medical school for the pre med major, but I also, uh, kind of took speech and drama. I don't know why. I just was like, I'd better have something in my pocket. And, uh, when I, when I graduated, I just, I needed time. I didn't, I didn't feel like drugs and surgery was where I wanted to be. Um, And so, took off a year, made pizza for a pizza store, and at night time explored a whole bunch of different holistic or complementary modalities of healthcare. And I fell in love with chiropractic and massage together. The... The fact that the nervous system controls and coordinates, you know, every cell and organ in the body and that sometimes the nervous system has impairments that you could sort of unlock and allow it to doctor itself better, uh, was very powerful to me. But the, the root of unlocking things is in the musculoskeletal system. It didn't make sense to me to just do muscular like massage or skeletal, like chiropractic, but to kind of go to school for both separately and smush them together like the peanut butter and chocolate of holistic healthcare. And, uh, that's kind of what I did. Um, the next arrow, when it said, Hey, come over here, go this way, was, uh, at the end of grad school. So my wife and I got married, uh, pretty young. We're married, uh, 25 years now, and,

Natalie 5:44

congratulations, that's amazing.

Dr. Berlin 5:46

thank you very much. Uh, very, very, very lucky and blessed. Um, and, uh, at the end of grad school, she's a psychologist, a perinatal psychologist. And, um, when we finished grad school, we're just like, Oh, let's, you know, have a kid. It's about a good time for us. Uh, and, uh, so we followed all the, uh, directions and no baby came out. Um, and we kept following directions and still no baby. And, uh, We ended up going down the slippery slope of assisted reproductive technology from the medical field and, uh, years, like three years in that system. And, uh, at the end of it, they just said, we don't think you're ever going to have a baby together and we don't know why. So you should consider alternative pathways to parenthood. Um, we were young, we were like 25 and 27. We were broke as could be. We had spent every dollar on fertility treatments that didn't work. It was a rollercoaster of emotions that kind of taxed our relationship, our personal health, everything. And so we were just broken, broken. So we decided not a good time to become parents anyway, perhaps, and so We just said, Hey, let's work on a relationship and find that spark again and, you know, fan the flames and, um, earn some money without spending it on fertility treatment

Natalie 7:14

Yeah, those are expensive, oh my goodness.

Dr. Berlin 7:17

yeah, no insurance coverage. And again, grad students, you know, no income, so it was very hard. And, um, we started to do things. We took our nutrition more seriously. We started to exercise. We were living in Nebraska and they have these like. Hundreds of miles of groomed bike trail, some of them, you know, along railroads or lakes, or it was just really, really beautiful. And we would just go for hours bike riding together. We had no kids. So on the bright side, there was nothing keeping us anchored to the house. So, um, It just, it, it evolved. We started to meditate and do a little Chinese medicine. And, uh, then we moved to Los Angeles for, uh, my wife's internship. And, uh, well, we were in Nebraska for an internship. We moved here for her postdoc was kind of like a fellowship. And, uh, once we got settled down, we thought, Hey, let's maybe explore alternative pathways to parenthood, whatever that means, but, uh, we never got to find out cause we found out we were pregnant.

Natalie 8:26

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Berlin 8:27

And

Natalie 8:28

such a happy story, oh

Dr. Berlin 8:29

well, thanks, you know, good things come to people who wait, I think is, that's how that became my motto. And, uh, then every two years we had another kid, we couldn't turn it off, so. We have, uh, four kids now, thank God, and they're healthy, and they just, when it was the right time, they came. So. When we opened our practice in Los Angeles, it was sort of like a mind body approach for general health and wellness, but also like a focus on boosting whatever natural fertility someone has. And, um, kind of in the first year, a couple of babies came through that program. And after that, it just snowballed. There were babies everywhere. It was just raining babies. So... You know, we found ourselves knee deep with patients who would say, you know, we want to continue care. I want to continue care with you. And I didn't know very much about pregnancy in general and certainly in the chiropractic realm. When I was in chiropractic school, they didn't teach very much about pregnancy, um, both in chiropractic and massage. Bulk of the training, which was short was essentially what not to do. Don't do this. Don't touch that. Don't press over here

Natalie 9:44

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 9:45

And I was like, oh, that's weird. But what do I do? you know and I've also learned that pregnant people aren't aren't broken fragile flowers, so there's a lot not only that you can do but that they need and can benefit from and That just took time, you know, so I would Tell them hey, I'm pretty sure I can work on you without harming you but surely There's somebody who has more experience with pregnancy than me, but they wanted to stick it out So I learned a lot on the job I consulted a lot with people who had been doing pregnancy care before me around the country and I just over time once the volume kicked in I think I started to see more pregnant clients than anybody I know certainly, um, and you just get a tremendous amount of experience and that kind of snowballs into other things like if you have a strong relationship of, of body work and you know, I, I still do massage with most of my patients before an adjustment. So our visits are at least 25, 30 minutes long, if not longer every time. And I really get to know. A lot, you know, about where the strengths and weaknesses are in the musculoskeletal system. Um, but, uh, sometimes massage therapists, uh, just becomes therapists. And, uh, you end up learning also where the strengths and weaknesses are in, in their own mind and, and, uh, spirit. And you really can sort of... Help them identify where those things are and give them tools to be able to bolster the strengths and fill in the weaknesses and, um, uh, At some point that turns into, Hey, can you come work with me when I'm in labor? Uh, and I'm like, sure. I think. And, um, that just, again, another big arrow saying, come over here and support people in labor, which I'd never. Imagined or dreamed of and, uh, after the first couple of births where I did body work is essentially why I was there, um, it just felt like if I was going to keep doing that, I should do, do the training just to be better equipped. Uh, I remember at one point I was working on somebody and the midwife took a nap and the guy who I thought was her husband went out to get some smokes and never came back and, uh, at a birth

Natalie 12:22

What? Oh, no.

Dr. Berlin 12:24

And so things started to pick up and she looked back and she said, say something meaningful. And I'm like, I don't know. I just rub things and crack stuff, you know? And, uh, that made me realize like, Ooh, maybe I should get some better tools if I'm going to be in this environment. So my wife and I both did do a training together.

Natalie 12:41

that is so cool.

Dr. Berlin 12:43

I mostly was there for the body work, um, and when she did birth, she was mostly doing more specialized care for people who have struggles with anxiety or OCD, uh, things like that, um, who could use different perspective in birth from a doula like, um, support person. That's how we got here.

Natalie 13:06

Wow. That's an amazing journey with a lot of different twists and turns. And yeah, I am fascinated. Like my brain is going in a lot of different, different directions. I have a lot of questions to ask you, but what a unique positioning you have with all of your training, your past training, and then being able to leverage that in the birth world where it's so, so needed, like that is just.

Berlin Wellness Group

Natalie 13:30

It's incredible. So, do you, you and your wife right now have a joint practice still? Okay, how does that work? How, like, walk me through a typical day, maybe, or like, what someone would experience if they're coming to see you.

Dr. Berlin 13:43

so our, our practice, we have a lot of practitioners in our practice.

Natalie 13:47

Okay.

Dr. Berlin 13:48

we have several chiropractors who I trained in the technique that I do with the bodywork. Um, and we have cranio psychotherapists, massage therapists, acupuncturists, and, uh, and my wife is the psychologist. So, um, people sometimes just come in for one or the other. Um, Or both, or a series of things. We're all kind of independent, but we also all work like a team. So if somebody comes in for something and I'm like, you know what, that's going to respond a lot better to acupuncture, then I'll, I'll suggest that. And we have it right here so they can just go get the acupuncture or vice versa. Or if we try something three or four times, I usually expect. To see a significant change, maybe not a resolution, a complete resolution, but a, an improvement. If I'm not seeing improvement, I don't just keep doing the same thing for a year. You know, either switch a modality or do some imaging or try to figure out what's what I'm missing here. Um, and so a lot of times, like I'll have somebody that, uh, comes in and, um, you start to work on the physical side of things and quickly realize there's. The physical manifestation is just where they're holding on to something much deeper, much more emotional. Um, and if, if I sense that, I'll, I'll ask. Sometimes they're ready to say yes, and sometimes not. But if they are, and it seems like something that they want to address, or there is time to address, a lot of these things come up around... Motherhood because there are things from childhood. And so it's a heavy responsibility now to all of a sudden, you know, be in the opposite role and be the one who has to care for a child and protect a child and take care of a child. Um, and, uh, I think that transition sometimes a lot of these things start to show themselves the things that we've swept under the carpet over time. now it's like obvious there's a big lump under there.

Natalie 15:48

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 15:49

You're not fooling anybody. So, um, that'll happen sometimes, and I'll recommend different modalities. Some of them that my wife does, like EMDR, or Semantic Experiencing Trauma Therapies, uh, or sometimes things that she doesn't do, that we don't do in the practice, like hypnotherapy, or other modalities, or sometimes, you know, uh, talk therapy, or even, uh, psychiatry, you know, depending on what's going on.

Natalie 16:15

Amazing. So, what would you say are maybe some of the more common manifestations of those issues? Like if somebody has a lot of anxiety surrounding becoming a parent, how does that show up in their body, in their nervous system that you notice?

Dr. Berlin 16:31

midwives sometimes say that a sizable portion of, uh, of breech positioning is, um, the body not, not quite ready, not wanting the baby to, to come down. And, uh, you could sometimes feel that because, you know, I'll, I'll ask, you know, is there unsettled emotion around becoming a parent, around childbirth? And they'll say no, and I'll be like, motherhood? Yes, you know, or relationship, you know, you could sort of, you don't have to be that deeply intuitive or even highly trained as in a psychological world to kind of realize. Okay, that's, that's probably something that you need to address, um, if you want to, you know, I, I never push it. I'm just like, Hey, is, is this component? I'll give you an example. Um, that that's not even motherhood or pregnancy related. I have a patient that I saw during pregnancy and, um, she, part of what she was coming in for was this shoulder issue that, um, had been playing her for years. It started with a very dramatic and traumatic car accident, and when she was just a young teenager, and she had done years of going to different doctors and therapists trying to resolve that issue with with no luck, and she had done a lot of talk therapy. With a therapist, and she had done a lot of body work with physical doctors, and not really much improvement. Um, and I told her that, and this is true, after you give birth, you kind of have a small window of opportunity where you still have those pregnancy hormones that make

Natalie 18:20

Mm hmm.

Dr. Berlin 18:21

a little bit more flexible, more moldable, clay, but no baby inside you. And we can get access to some of the things we can't get access when there is a baby inside you. You have a small window of opportunity to try to make long term changes. Um, from chronic things, and, uh, I think we just did one or two visits, and the, the downside there is it's very hard to get out of the house and make time for yourself

Natalie 18:43

Right. Right. Hmm.

Dr. Berlin 18:44

a newborn home. Um, anyway, now two years later, I, I did touch on one thing, which is... You know, the scalene muscle where, uh, the neck beats the first couple of ribs. And, uh, it was just, she's like, nobody has ever pushed in there. And that feels like the source. And so she came back two years later, ready to take care of it. Cause it's really been bothering her more and more now, I guess, with all the bending, lifting, holding, feeding, changing all the things you do with kids. Exacerbate it. uh, on her second visit back, I went to dig in there and they're just, she just got so emotional. So many tears started to come out and I just asked, I'm like, do you think this is all physical? Or do you think you still have some trauma in there from the accident? And then even more, you know, tears came out and she's like, thank you for bringing this out. Like I never, I never was able to find solutions. And so I just had to. Learn to live with it, but it's still there

Natalie 19:47

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 19:48

I want to get rid of it So that's something like that. I I said, okay. Well, here's a few modalities You can try and it literally just happened this morning. So this is a one from today I see sometimes people have all sorts of traumas whether it's physical abuse as a kid Or, um, just recently sexual abuse as a teenager. Um, and, and they manifest themselves in a lot of different ways. I mean, when we, when I talk to people who want a more natural birth experience. Um, so at some point, if they're looking for insight input, I'll talk to them about the difference between what oxytocin does to your body and what adrenaline does to your body.

Natalie 20:42

hmm. Mm

Dr. Berlin 20:44

Um, I was just recently talking to somebody about how you feel under oxytocin, the love, the bonding, the orgasm hormone, and how, if you bring that out somehow during labor, then you're. The messages that go to your brain are much happier messages. Whatever you feel in your body that is positive and pleasurable will be magnified versus if you're under adrenaline and the fear hormone, the fight or flight than anything that, um, you perceive your brain perceives. That could be danger. Like pain is going to be magnified many times before you get the message and it'll be screaming in pain. And, uh, I gave her an example, which we have on our podcast of a, uh, woman who had a 11 pound baby. Uh, vaginally, uh, unmedicated and didn't even tear. Um, and that's because she really wanted to get herself into that oxytocin mindset. And she read books like by Anna McGaskin and, and listened to podcasts and stories. And, uh, I think she watched Orcasmic Birth and she. Set everything up that to get there, even though she was in a hospital setting, knowing that the hospital would sort of put her more in the adrenaline side of things. Um, she based everything that she did, what she wore, what, who was around her, what the lighting was like, what the sense in the room were like. She did everything she needed to, to get to the oxytocin state. And then my, my patient said, you know, well, how can I do that? How can I, and, and, and she just, something in that conversation made it clear, um, that she doesn't ever feel like she's in an oxytocin state.

Natalie 22:25

Mm hmm.

Dr. Berlin 22:28

And, you know, that's, I just said, do you have some kind of trauma that prevents that? And she said, yes. And since the time I'm 80 and, um, Okay, so then it manifests itself and it becomes, it becomes an issue now, uh, becoming into motherhood. One of the things she told me is she never wants to have a girl as a child. She doesn't want to have that responsibility to protect a girl. Um, so. Uh, those are some of the different ways that when you're working with the body, I mean, the body is the mind, the people sometimes mistakenly think the brain is the mind, um, and while the brain can store thoughts and memories and emotions and feelings, um, so can all the other human tissue. And so

Natalie 23:18

so powerful. Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 23:20

you're holding that muscle. Sometimes you're holding that in the organs. Sometimes you're holding that in your uterus and your uterus is keeping the baby up and saying, don't come out. I'm not ready. I can't do this.

Natalie 23:30

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 23:31

And then, uh, you address that somehow, um, and once they feel more settled and everything relaxes, then the baby will come down.

Natalie 23:40

Yeah. Hmm. It's like we were made for that.

Dr. Berlin 23:45

Yeah, who would have thought?

Natalie 23:46

Yeah. So, okay. That kind of takes me into, I guess I'm, I'm curious more what you would say to people who hear that. And they're like, great, but what can like chiropractic do? What does it do for me, or what does massage actually, how does that actually shift things in my nervous system? Like, maybe some misconceptions about chiropractic care during pregnancy especially, and how you would respond to that.

Dr. Berlin 24:15

Yeah. Well, that's a multi focal question.

Natalie 24:18

I know, I'm sorry.

Dr. Berlin 24:19

I'll try to get all the pieces of it, um,

How Chiropractic Works in Pregnancy

Natalie 24:22

Yep.

Dr. Berlin 24:22

in a timely fashion. So, um, I look at chiropractic, I look at myself as WD 40 for the musculoskeletal system, right? So where things are stiff, tight, restricted, my job is to loosen them up and restore normal tone, get rid of the extra... dysfunctional grip, um, and in the soft tissue, like muscles, tendons, fascia, we do that with massage. We try to elongate the shortened muscles and restore normal length and tone there. And then in the bones, wherever two bones come together, they form a joint, and that joint should have motion. between the two bones. And if it's restricted, if it gets locked up either partially or completely, then we adjust it and we restore motion between the bones around the joint. When we do it on both sides, we have a really nice impact on improvement in the musculoskeletal function. The other side of that coin is really duct tape, which is more like physical therapy, um, personal training, things that are going to find the weaknesses and instabilities and use exercise to strengthen up and restore stability to those areas. And then that way we're like, really have a complete musculoskeletal health and wellness. Uh, so then when it comes to pregnancy, uh, I think that some things are caused by pregnancy in the musculoskeletal realm and some things are just highlighted by pregnancy. Oftentimes we'll see somebody with an old tailbone injury from years ago and you fall on the ice, ice skating, you fall snowboarding, you fall off a horse. Clown, class clown pulls a chair out from under you and you just hit the ground. Uh, it doesn't bother you. I mean, it's bad for a couple of weeks, but you're young and healthy and having a good time. You just go about life. And it doesn't bother you again until, you know, second trimester of your first pregnancy. And now there's pressure trying to push back against that tailbone, but the tailbone has no mobility in it. You know, that can show up there. Uh, and then of course, does it. depending on how it's oriented into the pelvic outlet and how much mobility it doesn't have, um, when the baby is trying to come through there and also what positions are limited to in labor and birth. Um, if the baby's trying to come through there, it can cause a serious slowdown in the birth, um, an obstruction to kind of the birth, but also end up, because it doesn't want to move, end up either being significantly bruised or even fractured. Uh, but if we know about it, then we can start to loosen up those tight tendons that locked into place to protect it whenever that original injury happened. We can do trigger points. We can, um, even try to, if the tailbone is, the anatomy is such that you can reach it externally, you can kind of just get into it and give it a little bit of mobilization. Uh, it makes a huge difference. I've had several people injure a tailbone in a pregnancy, uh, before getting care. And then coming back, because that pain will start to act up again in the second pregnancy usually. Um, and when we take care of it, I've never seen a repeat injury. So, or even if we detect it in a first pregnancy, I've never seen an injury once we take care of it. So, that's just like one thing. I mean, sciatica, that comes up during pregnancy. Um, It could be from the new sleeping position, all that pressure on your hips, especially if you're not a side sleeper,

Natalie 27:46

Right.

Dr. Berlin 27:47

um, and rib discomfort, especially if you don't have the longest torso and your baby starts to occupy the full. Space, you run out of room in the womb. Um, positioning things are, uh, affected by your musculoskeletal, like when the baby runs out of space and wants to go head down. If it's stiff, tight, and rigid there, then it might be more inviting to go up under your ribcage with the, with the head. So, we don't turn babies manually, but we do restore function to the musculoskeletal system in a way that creates more functional space. And, uh, babies oftentimes take advantage of that, once the space is open. So, those are some of the ways that, uh, for comfort, for function, for birth preparation, um, chiropractic could be helpful. Misconceptions, I don't, I think that... Sometimes you'll ask your medical provider, like your doctor, How can I do chiropractic during pregnancy? And they're not a big fan of chiropractic even when you're not pregnant. So, um, I think in general, if you ask the wrong person the right question, you'll get garbage answers. So, um, if I ask my, my provider of my, my medical doctor about ashwagandha, um, he'll probably say gesundheit or something like that. Uh, I don't know about ashwagandha. So forget about pregnancy. It's just the wrong person to ask that question to.

Natalie 29:07

Mm

Dr. Berlin 29:07

Um, And I would say a good number of my patients are medical doctors. A good number of my patients are obstetricians and midwives themselves. Um, and there, a good number of our referrals come from doctors like that. Like, there's a bunch of doctors that get it. Maybe they're skeptical or nervous the first couple of times. After a while they see, Oh, when somebody comes with that sciatica and we can get rid of it in two or three visits instead of it getting worse and worse, then instead of having to tell the patient, Hey, there's nothing you can do about that. I'm so sorry. It's just a normal part of pregnancy. They become a superhero and they're like, Oh, see this person. And they can help alleviate that, uh, with a little bit of massage and adjustment, some acupuncture

Natalie 29:53

Yeah. And that really makes a difference for future pregnancies, if not only the labor and delivery that they have with that one. It's incredible. I love that you brought up exercise, too. Of course, that's my jam. That's my thing. So I really, I really enjoy the collaborative aspect of care when you can refer to other providers and address the entire body as a holistic person with, you know, multiple, multiple modalities. I think that's, that's great.

Dr. Berlin 30:23

teamwork.

Natalie 30:24

Yeah, it's really the future of medicine and health care, wellness care, essentially.

Dr. Berlin 30:29

Well, I think it is healthcare. I think our, our current system. In the United States, anyway, that we call the health care system is more aptly, and I'm not saying this like sarcastically, but I think it's really disease care, um, which is, if you go to your doctor, at least things are starting to improve a little bit, but, you know, 10 years ago, if you go to your doctor and you say, Hey, I'm feeling fine, they'll be like, okay, get out of here. Um,

Natalie 30:56

you here?

Dr. Berlin 30:57

exactly what the absence of symptoms is not health.

Natalie 31:01

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Berlin 31:02

Right. There's, there's a lot that you can work on to improve and keep yourself healthy. So they would only see if you have symptoms or problems or disease. So that system really is set up for disease care and health care is the other side of the coin where you do things to, uh, you know, work on and promote your physical, mental, and spiritual health, um, to keep it

Natalie 31:27

Yeah. Absolutely. Um, okay. So what I know about you is basically we have a similar mission is, you know, providing people with lots of information, lots of resources so they can make informed decisions about their own bodies, about their families, about their health in general. Um, Um, and especially when they're going through that motherhood transition, that parent had transitioned from not having any, any children to all of a sudden they're parents. Um, so you've developed like this empire essentially of pregnancy resources, um, called the Informed Pregnancy Project. Can you talk about that more, kind of explain what's included, what's your goal with that?

Dr. Berlin 32:12

that you said, it's about, uh, sort of compiling information. And. Delivering it in digestible formats and presenting multiple sides, um, of, of options, you know, choices when you have a choice to make, trying to present all the different choices that should be available to you. And some of the pros and cons of them, um, and sometimes just experiences, anecdotal experiences from people who've been there and done that. So it started very organically also, just, uh, when I got into working with pregnancy, all these questions would come up again and again, I wouldn't know anything about it. Uh, Hey, can you help me find a doctor who's supportive of VBAC? And I'm like, Sure, what's VBAC? You know, and then, uh, I'd be like, oh, why wouldn't you be able to give birth vaginally just because you had a C section? And they were like, oh, yeah, a lot of the doctors won't do it, or the hospitals won't do it. And then I would just do research on my own because I was very curious about, there must be a solid reason why we're not offering this to people.

Natalie 33:28

hmm.

Dr. Berlin 33:29

Even just from an economic perspective, I was like, it's not like What insurance company wants to pay for a C section when you can just do a vaginal or even the four times the hotel, the hotel hospital stay? Um, why would they want to do that? And so, you know, the more I'd research all these, all these questions and come up with answers, um, I, I would start to compile them and we started just a, a little magazine actually that we're printing and distributing all over the place with questions and answers and little articles, uh, that turned into a podcast like 10, 12 years ago. Um, I didn't know anything about podcasting. I just knew I, this new medium was available and I wanted to get out there and talk to people. So I, uh, I think the first podcast I did, the first episode costs about 1, 500.

Natalie 34:24

Oh my goodness.

Dr. Berlin 34:26

Yeah, because I rented a studio, a very fancy studio in Santa Monica, California, where Pink records her albums. So it's like a floating studio that's soundproof and had all this high tech equipment and this engineer. And, uh, I thought, okay, I'll just rent it for an hour. Uh, and then I didn't realize the, you know, guests don't always come on time. And so the clock is ticking and the conversation got long and, and then. You also pay for the studio during the time that the engineer is editing your podcast, which took a while. Yeah, it was like 1, 500 for the first episode. I think I got the second episode down to 1, 000. And I was like, okay, I could do this, like, three times a year. And of course now podcasting being what it is, you know, it's a whole different situation, but, uh, it, it grew just organically. Like, uh, my cohost was pregnant with her first baby at the time and she was so curious and she was able to ask questions from. The perspective that most of the audience was going to want to know. And, uh, it was just a great chemistry. And we essentially branched into three types of episodes. Um, one is just, um, an expert talking about a topic. So amniotic fluid or umbilical cord or. Uh, Placenta previa or anything like that. Um, and then birth stories. So that also became, it became curious to me to sort of record people before they have the baby and kind of get into what they're planning. And then after they have the baby and see how things went down and what they learned from the experience that we could also learn from the experience. And then over time, because it's Hollywood, we started seeing celebrity clients and. You know, uh, they would get benefit out of listening to the podcast. So if I would ask them to join me, they would feel like paying it forward and sharing their experience. So those are the basic types of episodes that we have. Um, and then I was really compelled by that VBAT question and also breach was another one where we get so many breach questions and people panicking over breach and, uh, that compelled me to make two documentaries. Uh, even though I didn't know anything about making documentaries, I made one on breech

Natalie 36:47

you, just doing it.

Dr. Berlin 36:50

Haha. Well, yeah, thanks. It's hard to watch people struggle with no information and powerless. So, uh, one's called, Heads Up! The Disappearing Art of Vaginal Breach Delivery, and one is called Trial of Labor, which is all about VBAC. From... women's perspective. So it's for women who are pregnant for the second or third time and previously only had cesarean birth that they did not plan for. And, uh, we shot a lot of doctors and experts and one day it just became clear to us if we cut out all those talking heads, the story is so much more powerful, uh, coming from a woman about her experience and about this. Uh, journey because they were all pregnant while we shot, uh, this journey to try have a more empowered birth experience. And it came out and, and, and the guy who directed it with me, his name is Robert Humphries. He's a, a really very talented cinematographer, director of photography, and it just came out. The cinematography in there is very, very well done. Uh, and then, it was like striking a match. We came out with this documentary, and there was so much noise about it, and people were doing screenings, and people, all this conversations online. Uh, and then, I don't know, a year later, it was, I was getting these messages from people saying, Oh, I loved your movie, Trial of Labor. I wish I saw it before I had my second baby. And I was like, wait a second. I made it so that you could see it before you had your second baby. It was like, painful. Um, and so I reached out to Ricky Lake and some other people, uh, like, how do you get your movies, how do you keep them alive and out there and, and ahead of the audience before they... They have to make the choices, you know, and, um, I, a lot of the filmmakers said same issue, you know, came out with a big bang and then just fizzled out and it's hard for people to find them and to, to watch them. They're all scattered in different places and got to become memberships of all these weird subscription. Services, uh, you know, and some of them seem shady, like I'm probably going to have to cancel my credit card next week. Um,

Natalie 39:05

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 39:06

and, uh, that just gave me an idea, like, there should be one place where all these things live together, where everybody can access them, anybody with internet can access them. They shouldn't be cost prohibitive, it's important stuff. And so that gave rise to Informed Pregnancy Plus, which is, uh, a streaming site. Um, Adam form pregnancy dot TV. And, uh, we have a lot of those iconic films, orgasmic birth, the business of being born. These are my hours, mama Sherpa's breast milk, the Milky way. Um, but also a whole bunch of, uh, lesser known films that are, are pretty important to, uh, of course, my two films around there. And then we expanded into a little series, some of that we produce like the real midwives of Los Angeles. And, uh,

Natalie 39:56

need to watch that. I have not watched that yet.

Dr. Berlin 39:59

I think it's good, uh, My Birth, Baby Book Nook, where we do book reviews of a bunch of the parenting and pregnancy books, and, um, Now we have a whole mind and body section with yoga and meditation and exercise and belly dance and all these different things for the mind and body and Workshops, so my wife has a workshop called the afterbirth plan where you plan for after birth The subtitle could be how to still like your partner after you have a baby together

Natalie 40:29

It's so

Dr. Berlin 40:30

and then Sleep on there, nutrition on there, um, and it's just, you know, it's, I think, priced to be affordable. Just around 7 a month and it's on Apple Android and Roku so you can access it from pretty much any device and We're just constantly adding more stuff there and the feedback is so good Like now people are getting lots of information Before it's too late, and that just makes me Feel great. And the last thing is our blog. We have a great head of content. Her name is Rose and she's just a great writer and she's a great way of connecting with people, finding out what their secret superpowers are, what they know that we need to know. And, uh, putting it into a, a blog article that is also easy to digest. So that is the informed pregnancy project. And one day. Down the road, I will sleep a very long time.

Natalie 41:30

Oh, man. Awesome. Awesome. Um, yeah, those, those big umbrella projects are so necessary, but also so time consuming. So I'm sure it's a ton of work on the back end, but it's an amazing resource and that's what I'm all about. I mean, obviously my podcast is called the resource doula give people resources. So I'm, I'm happy to have another resource. To give people. Um,

Dr. Berlin 41:55

thank you.

Natalie 41:56

yeah, yeah, of course. Um, okay, kind of going off of that, I have another question that informed consent and informed choice, obviously informed pregnancy is your thing. How does that show up in your work? Even if, if you're going to a labor or you're working on somebody prior to or after, like, How would you define informed choice for motherhood, for parenthood? Um, And maybe like what you would hope to, I have, I do have loaded questions. I'm sorry. Um, what you hope to see in the future for like options, because education is, is power, right? Knowing options is, is powerful for people. So does that, if that's not too long of a question.

Dr. Berlin 42:44

No, not at all. Uh, you know, I learned a lot about informed choice over, over the past 20 years as a practitioner. Um, you know, you have all these ideals and, and I, I sometimes want something for somebody so badly that they don't want for themselves.

Natalie 43:06

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 43:07

And at the end of the day, it's not about what I want. It's about what they want. And, um, it, the nuances that go along with that, the learning curve that goes along with that, um, has been huge for me. You know, I sort of, I sort of dislike the, the early practitioner who was me, um, in terms of that, because I, I kind of had an agenda. And I was like, I'm going to help you out. I'm going to, you're thirsty. Here's water. Come, come get the water, you know? And, um, it comes from a good place, but, um, it's, it's, it's something that required experience and maturity to realize, um, that's not informed choice. That's. That's me thinking I know what's best and

Natalie 44:00

Mm hmm.

Dr. Berlin 44:00

you there. So,

Natalie 44:02

I think it's pretty common in a lot of practitioners, we, when we know better, we do better, right? So, uh huh,

Dr. Berlin 44:07

totally, and, but, so, I, I, I come from a place, even with what happened to my dad, I don't, I don't dislike medicine, drugs and surgery, I, I appreciate them, um, but I realize their strengths and their, Their strength to do good and their strength to do harm and so I just didn't want to be the one in that space practicing drugs and surgery, but I respect them and I think they're great and I think look on the one hand I think the only thing sadder to me than a cesarean that's pushed on someone who doesn't need one and doesn't want one is Someone who needs one and doesn't have access to one. So it's an incredible tool You, you sometimes see it overused or people pushed into it who don't really want it and, you know, arguably don't need it. And I think that oftentimes it comes from a good place. I don't think medicine is bad. I don't think doctors are bad. I think it comes from a good place where they're like, no, no, if you were my daughter, I would do this. We should do this. We have to do this. Um, but that's not really how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be like, here's all the choices and here are the pros and cons as I know them. You know, here's data. I love, I have a doctor who does a lot of second opinions for people, and, um, his whole thing is he doesn't make a decision for you at all. It's like, if you want to know, you know, the latest data on, on, uh, I don't know, placenta previa with however much of a gap you have between that placenta and your cervix, he's going to give you that information. If you want to know the pros and cons of doing a VBAC, uh, with your circumstance, whatever that is, um, is going to give you the pros and cons as we know them. Cholestasis, should we, because you're, you're having a reaction, a gallbladder reaction to the pregnancy. Uh, do we need, is the baby in danger or not in danger? Um, even the idea of Danger is a personal idea, but somebody might consider it dangerous, somebody else might not consider it. Like risk. What is risky? Is a quarter of a percent chance of X, Y, or Z happening risky? Well, one person would say, I'm not taking that risk. And another person says, I'm definitely, that's 99 and three quarters percent chance it's not going to happen. So. Yes, please.

Natalie 46:37

right, uh

Dr. Berlin 46:39

so I, to me, informed consent is that is saying, Oh, here's all the choices and here's all the data that we have. None of them are usually a hundred percent safe without any possibility of something going wrong. Um, so here's the option. So if you have a breech baby and you know, you want to deliver that baby one way or another, um, what are the pros and cons of the vaginal birth versus the cesarean birth for breach in general, but for you in particular? Have you had a vaginal birth before? Is your baby butt down or foot down or transverse? Uh, you know, is the head extended back or not extended back? How big is your baby? These are things that are just varied from person to person. You can't just do one generalized study and apply it to everybody and say, okay, now you don't have the choice. Nobody has the choice.

Natalie 47:27

uh

Dr. Berlin 47:27

So, I think that informed consent to me means, um, whatever the things are that, you know, on your path forward, wherever you have to make a decision, um, somebody's sitting down and explaining to you what we know, what, what the choices are and pros and cons, even heads up, I have a lot of patients that deliver their patients, uh, their breech babies vaginally, but when I recommend that they watch heads up, it's not because I want it to convince them to have a vaginal breech birth. A lot of people watch it and they're like, yeah, I'm definitely not doing that. Yeah. And that's great! I want you to have the information and see what appeals to you, you know? I'll give you an example, even just the way, with VPAC, when we say, Okay, well the main risk is that the scar on the uterus is gonna open up, you know? Uterine rupture, which I think is an evil term. But, um, you know, if I want you... If I want to push you in the direction of doing the VBAC, I'll say, Oh, you know, it's about one half of one percent of a chance that that's going to happen. Which sounds very, very tiny, right? Um, and if I want you to go for the C section, I'll say, Well, about one in two hundred people have this uterine rupture. Well, one in two hundred is the same as... Yeah, I know two hundred people.

Natalie 48:44

right,

Dr. Berlin 48:44

You know, but that's the same as one half of 1%.

Natalie 48:48

Mm hmm.

Dr. Berlin 48:49

So even just the way we present data, the same exact data can be manipulative into you doing what I want you to do, or you're doing, um, something else, taking a different choice. And so that's what we try to do is we try to find the data and present it. In different ways, uh, from different sides or neutral ways, and, um, you process it and figure out what, what you want to do for you, what risks you want to take for what benefits, and you're the one who has to go through it and the, with the consequences of it, it's not generally my decision to make. And so that just took me a long time to learn as a provider. And, um, my mission really is to help people realize that that's how it is in America. I work for you, and so does the hospital, and so does every other practitioner.

Natalie 49:45

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 49:45

But it doesn't feel that way when you're in an oversized unisex hospital moomoo and I'm in a nice scrubs or whatever

Natalie 49:52

Agreed.

Dr. Berlin 49:53

lab coat.

Natalie 49:54

Yeah. It's more of the, you're embodying the guide on the side rather than the expert way out front telling everybody the, the quote unquote right thing to do.

Dr. Berlin 50:06

And I'm still learning, you know. Life is always teaching you stuff.

Natalie 50:11

It really is. It really is. Um, what would you say? I guess, is your favorite type of response from somebody's nervous system that you get? Like what brings you joy in your work? If that's a, like, way to put that. What is, what gets you up in the morning and what brings you joy when

Why do you do what you do?

Natalie 50:33

you work

Dr. Berlin 50:33

Well, there's a couple of things. First of all, we frequently take people who are very pregnant and very uncomfortable. And in a couple of sessions, they're a lot more comfortable. One of my favorite things is when somebody says, Oh my gosh, I wish I started doing this a long time ago. Um, that's part A. Part B is, uh, not so much on the physical level, just somebody who realizes, wait a second, I, you know, I, I sort of ask people, how do you want your birth to go? And a lot of times they say fast and easy. And I'm like, okay, but if you were climbing Mount Everest, how do you want your climb to go? And it's not necessarily fast and easy and they start to think, well, why do people not only climb Mount Everest, but train for a long time and pay a lot of money to do it. And, uh, and you know, cause sometimes a well intentioned partner or somebody else will say you don't have to be a hero. Why do you want to feel pain that you don't have to feel like? Why do people climb Mount Everest? There's, there's gotta be a reason for it. So, um, sometimes when you just open someone's eyes and make them realize, wait a second, I'm not only can I, Potentially do this a different way than the standard. Just go in early, get drugs, numb yourself to the whole thing, right? Which is also fine, but maybe I don't have to do it that way. And maybe I don't want to do it that way. And the idea, because I find more and more that young, strong, healthy women, uh, are really believe that they can't do can't do that. That's not for me, you know? And I'm like, well, just, I wonder how it was like before we had epidurals, you know, for those 5, 000 years. Um. You know, did people think they couldn't do it? Or did they just think, how are we going to do this?

Natalie 52:22

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 52:24

And all the other animals on the planet that do it still with, you know, naturally. And, and again, the whole idea is to just help them think it through. They might think through these things and be like, yeah, I'm definitely getting an epidural in the parking lot. Or, they might say, I want to see what it's like on my own steam. I want to connect with my baby. I want to see. Also, I don't believe there's anything as unmedicated birth. Either we give you drugs or you make your own. And the drugs that you make are much cooler than I think we can give you. But they're not instant like that. They take time to kick in. So having somebody have an open mind, you know, I'll, I'll tell you also two things are popping into my head. One is I had a patient just this week who came back two years after giving birth. Um, she came in for breach. Her doctor said, Oh, maybe the chiropractor can help her with this bridge. I got the sense right away. She did not want this baby to turn.

Natalie 53:21

Hmm.

Dr. Berlin 53:22

She wanted to have a cesarean birth and I, I just called her on it. I asked her, I'm like, it's okay to have a cesarean birth if you want one. And she's like, well, I don't know, let's see, maybe the baby will turn, maybe the baby won't turn. And, uh, even when I would do the massage and things, she's like, okay, not too deep over there. Uh, and I was like barely touching it and I just got it and I had a talk with her. That's the opposite of the talk that I normally have, which is like. If there's some reason you really don't want to have a vaginal birth, like you want to have a caesarean birth, that's a totally valid option, too. Like, that's a great, another great choice that we have today that we didn't have in the past. And, um, I hadn't seen her in two years. She went and she had her caesarean birth, I just saw her this week for the first time. And, She said, thank you so much for giving me, for helping me give myself permission

Natalie 54:14

Hmm.

Dr. Berlin 54:16

to choose to have a caesarean birth. It was a great experience, and it's definitely what I wanted, and she had had in her family a lot of medical complications from things, and um, Within a year of her having the baby, before she got pregnant, or during the pregnancy, she lost a sibling, and she lost a parent, and there was just too much uncertainty. She psychologically didn't want to deal with the unknown.

Natalie 54:42

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 54:43

She wanted the more, like, Controlled route. Let's do it at this time. I know who's going to be there. They already had their coffee. Everything's going to be good. And she had a great experience. And now I, you know, I didn't know two years later, she just came back and told me. So it's the idea where you can open up your mind to other options, realize that you're the person who should be in the driver's seat and we all support what it is that you want to do.

Natalie 55:06

Yeah.

Dr. Berlin 55:07

Um, and then the second thing that pops into my head is just at birth once in a while, the, Seeing the shift, the transition from adrenaline, fear, fight or flight, to confident, I got this, and just that power, uh, and once in a while, body work is the tool that helps them get there. And those are some of the most powerful moments of my life, where, uh, one in particular, I walked into a home birth, and mom was laboring, and I said, Oh, Dr. Berlinter, do you want him to come in? And she said, Yes, I want him to come in. Uh, I got in there, and, and whenever she would have a surge, I would say they're about four minutes apart. Whenever she would have a surge, you could just see her whole body tighten up, and fight it, and... She became so uncomfortable, um, it looked violent, actually, to, to me as an outsider. Um, and I didn't even talk to her. We communicated with body language. We already had a long relationship from even before she was pregnant, uh, working together. And, uh, I just took a foot. I took her foot and I held it and I started doing a little reflexology and massage. She was exhausted by the time I got there. She had been in labor for a long time. And, uh, On the next couple of surges, you could see she was just a little more sleepy. And there was one, eventually, where the surge came and she was too sleepy to, like, jump up and fight herself. And on that surge, on that moment when she realized that if she's not fighting herself, it's a lot more tolerable, That was the moment of change. And after that she would feel it coming and not be afraid to surrender into it. And, uh, each time she just got more confident and you could start to see oxytocin surging around. Um, so if there's a moment that, That is like powerful to me in my mind. Um, it's those, there's several versions of those over, over the time that I used to do birth work.

Natalie 57:15

Amazing. Yeah, I feel like there's a life lesson in there somewhere, just in that example that you shared. That's, it's very powerful. I think you were saying like 5, 000 years ago, what did we do? Did we fear birth? Did we like question it? And I think with more knowledge and more information in this day and age can also come more fear. But you and I want to provide the information that is, takes that fear away and gives the power back. So I think there's, there's a fine line, right? Lots of information. All the stories from your aunts and your sisters and their friends and their traumatic birth stories that they dump on you versus here's the information, here's the truth. And you can choose whatever you choose, but it comes from a place of, of knowledge and power. So,

Dr. Berlin 58:04

I once heard, uh, my good friend, Dr. Stuart Fishbein say

Natalie 58:09

I love doctors, too.

Dr. Berlin 58:11

we were on a panel together and he said something that I've, I've used many times in his name, uh, which is that if you're 28 years old. And you're going to fly in an airplane for the first time, and all you know about airplane flight is what you see in TV movies or read in newspaper headlines. You're going to be terrified, like really terrified. The assumption is that every flight that takes off either has mechanical failure and falls out of the sky, or is hijacked by terrorists, or has snakes on it. Uh, but the idea that a flight could just take off and have a smooth flight with yummy snacks and land... Um, it's foreign to you because you never see that in, in, in dramatized fashion. So, um, most people today get their, their experience with what childbirth could be like from TV movies, newspaper headlines, and drama stories from people who had rough experiences. And so it's no surprise that you go in thinking, Oh God, this is going to be the worst thing ever. I got to numb myself to as much of it as I possibly can. I don't want to feel anything. Um, and then. Once you start to look at the, the actual statistics, you realize, okay, those are the stories that you hear. But just like a plane can take off, have a great flight, and land, birth generally, when there's not a lot of fear involved, starts and, you know, progresses and finishes, and there's nothing crazy that happens in between, um, in terms of badness. Um, just yummy snacks. Home birth always has...

Natalie 59:56

It's true. It's true. All the home births I've been to, there's good food.

Dr. Berlin 1:00:00

When people are like, Hey, you come to my birth, I'm like, where are you giving birth? What are, what's the snack section?

Natalie 1:00:06

make sure. Oh, man. Um, okay, we'll, we'll start kind of wrapping up here. I wanna know your number one piece of information for our listeners. What do you want everyone to know?

Dr. Berlin's #1 piece of advice

Dr. Berlin 1:00:21

Um, I want you to know that it's your journey and, um, there's no right or wrong if you, if you gather information and absorb it and study it and make a choice, that's the right choice. Um, you can't ever look back and wonder what if, And, uh, you gotta surround yourself with people who support you and your choices.

Natalie 1:00:46

I love that. Okay. I have another question. I ask these two to most of my guests who come on What is your number one favorite wellness habit that you personally have incorporated into your daily life?

Dr. Berlin 1:00:59

I do not have nearly enough wellness habits. I might only have the one wellness habit.

Natalie 1:01:05

That's okay,

Dr. Berlin 1:01:06

Uh, haha, um, I meditate. And I meditate for three minutes at a time.

Natalie 1:01:16

okay,

Dr. Berlin 1:01:17

Um, and the two times I could, I might do it almost without fail. When I get home from work, um, I'll either stop the car a block away or in my driveway. I used to do it in the driveway and the kids would all run out and I'm like, oh, this is not good. So I'd stop a block away. Uh, now they're teenagers, so I can't get them out of bed anyway. But, I'll meditate for about three minutes. I'll turn off the car, close my eyes, and take some deep breaths, and just count, or to clear my mind, like rebooting a computer, before I go into the house, because I work a lot. I see patients ten hours a day, on average. I work on all the media that we talked about every single day. Um, And I, I try to be present with my kids for their school and helping them with their homework, and I never liked reading English literature, even when I was a teenager, so it's not much more fun this time around. Uh, But if I take all that in with me, there's no capacity for me to really be present with my wife and with my kids. So my favorite thing when I, when I do it well is that three minute meditation. And then the other time is sometimes I'll do it right before bed. My, my instinct is I got to get on my phone and handle a bunch of loose ends and then I don't get a good night's sleep. If instead I just close my eyes and meditate for three minutes, I get a great night's sleep.

Natalie 1:02:44

You probably fall asleep during that three minutes, I'm guessing.

Dr. Berlin 1:02:46

Oftentimes, yes.

Natalie 1:02:47

Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. I will, I will have to incorporate that in my daily routine. I think I could use that.

Dr. Berlin 1:02:54

Okay, I'm gonna get your number one, but you probably have a million of them, so I'm gonna,

Natalie 1:03:01

Well, lately, it's been walking. It's just been getting outside and walking. Because it's, it's getting colder here. I'm in Alaska, and the snow is like halfway down the mountain already.

Dr. Berlin 1:03:11

oh wow, oh yeah, because now it's September, the cruise ships have

Natalie 1:03:14

Exactly. Yeah, so we're not even at the end of September and I'm, I'm assuming the snow will be on the ground by like within a month or five weeks from now. And so just the, work that it takes to get out the door, go for a walk, regardless of weather has been really beneficial for me. So,

Dr. Berlin 1:03:34

um, I crave walking, and I have no excuse, I'm in Los Angeles,

Natalie 1:03:39

yeah, you've got perfect weather every day.

Dr. Berlin 1:03:41

Like, winter is 55 degrees,

Natalie 1:03:44

Yeah, that's shorts and t shirt weather. Oh, man. Um,

Dr. Berlin 1:03:50

for sharing that.

Natalie 1:03:50

Yeah, thanks for asking. Um, can you tell our listeners where to find you online? Um, and if they are local to Los Angeles, if they want to come see you, how would they do that? How would they book with you?

Dr. Berlin 1:04:02

Oh, sure. So, uh, all the Informed Pregnancy media, the podcast, the blog, and the streaming service, you can get from informedpregnancy. com. Um, the streamer is on Apple, Android, and Roku, and the app is called Informed Pregnancy Plus. And, uh, Instagram is where, if I'm going to be on social media, that's where I check once in a while. Um, and I do respond to pretty much everybody who reaches out. So, if there's any way I could be helpful in anything, um, I will always try. And in Los Angeles, we're in the Miracle Mile area. And if you want to learn about our services that we offer, you can visit drberlin. com it's D O C T O R B E R L I N just on Instagram. It's the same Dr. Berlin spelled out.

Natalie 1:04:53

Perfect. And I'll put all the links in the show notes for this episode as well, so people can easily access them.

Dr. Berlin 1:04:59

Sweet. Thank you.

Natalie 1:05:00

Yeah, well, thank you so much for spending your time and energy with me today. I, I so appreciate it.

Dr. Berlin 1:05:06

My pleasure. It's really special to connect with one of the teammates I've been working with for a long time, but never met.

Natalie 1:05:15

Yeah, agreed. I love chatting with Dr. Berlin. He is such an amazing resource and he has a way of working with clients so they feel safe and empowered, which is exactly what you want in a healthcare provider. My top takeaway is that our bodies remember and it can be so helpful to work through past traumas so that we can heal our bodies and our minds. I hope you enjoyed listening to him as much as I enjoyed interviewing him. Be sure to check out his website and the Informed Pregnancy Project. All the links and resources he mentioned are in the show notes for today's episode. Please remember that what you hear on this podcast is not medical advice, but remember to always be an active participant in your care and talk to your healthcare team before making important decisions. If you found this podcast helpful, Please consider leaving a five star rating on Spotify or writing a positive review on Apple podcasts, as this really helps other people find this show. Thanks so much for listening. I'll catch you next time.